New Zealand Secondary School Students Association Interview

Richard Bolstad 11 July, 1972 Interviewed by Sharon Crosbie on Radio New Zealand (Excerpt)

Richard: I’m 16 years old, and I’m a 7^th form student studying at correspondence school. I’m very interested in Education, particularly the Secondary School system and the things that are wrong with New Zealand Secondary Schools in general. And I’m generally interested in the kind of society we have and the kind of people we’re producing.

Sharon: What started you questioning the system, the education system here?

Richard: Ah well I think it was the obvious things that send most secondary students off on this track: things like the hair restrictions – the ridiculous little things that stand out: hair restrictions, uniforms, caning: this sort of thing.

Sharon: Were you influenced at all by the movements overseas?

Richard: I’m corresponding with students who organize big national student organizations in America, and they have pretty well everything that we are trying to get in New Zealand, and it’s very exciting to see what’s going on in countries like that. … Overseas observers note that the schools here don’t cater for a democratic society, that the schools don’t respect individuality, that they really seem to hearken back to a more archaic system that we should have gotten away from by now.

Sharon: Well somebody said in the English Radio Times that it could be described as ill-preparation for democracy in a semi-dictatorship, is this what you feel.

Richard: Yes, this is precisely the thing. There have been some very good books written over the last few years by members of the PPTA (New Zealand Post Primary Teachers Association) and by American observers in New Zealand, about this issue, pointing out quite clearly that it’s totally incongruous to educate people for a democratic society in what boils down to an oligarchy.

Sharon: Hmm. What about the point though that you’ve got always the situation where the teacher has to get across a certain message, she has to inculcate certain things in the mind of the people she’s with, and a state of anarchy therefore can’t exist, or everyone’s time is wasted.

Richard: Mmm. This is fair enough. You see we agree that an education process is going on in the schools. But there’s one very important thing to remember about education and that is that anything you are force-fed at a school you’ll break away from as soon as you leave that school. Education is a process that comes from within the student themselves, and so the purpose of the teacher is to encourage education starting in the students, it’s not to sort of thrust some ideas onto them.

Sharon: This implies that the teacher-student relationship is a close one. How can this be when your class sizes are of necessity 36-40?

Richard: Well we’d like to think that they’re not “of necessity”. That’s a disaster when you have a class of 40 students, especially when the teacher has several of these classes to handle each day, because of course he can’t come down to a working understanding of what makes all these pupils go, of what kind of things they’re interested in….

Caller: Do you not agree that you have to discipline the body in order to discipline the mind?

Richard: Yes, this is true but it depends what kind of discipline you’re talking about. See, I would say that true discipline can only come from the person themselves and that any exterior discipline is bound to fall down in the end.

Caller: How do you stop a person talking in class?

Richard: Well, I would say that this problem shouldn’t arise in a reasonable situation. If a person feel like talking them he should be welcome to talk. He should be asked to leave the classroom situation if he’s obviously disrupting a fair situation that’s going on. You don’t haul him out and cane him and tell him that he’s not welcome to speak, not welcome to say something.

Caller: Well, what if this happens every class, if you have to send him out of class? Do you think that’s quite sufficient discipline? Don’t you think that that should be taken further?

Richard: No, I would say that in that situation the student has an obvious problem in his relation to the education system, so that you’d look into this and see what’s annoying him about the education system, and whether he’s perhaps in the wrong kind of school environment; obviously he’s probably learning the wrong kind of things: I mean if he’s not interested in what is going on in class then obviously he’s not getting an education …

Caller: You don’t think he’s got a parental problem?

Richard: Yes, well that’s quite possible too you see.

Caller: Well don’t you think the school should have to take over from the parents in this case?

Richard: It’s not a matter of “taking over from the parents” so much as – the school should try to offer some kind of help. This is one of our aims is to set up a full and adequate counselling service which gives advice on these sorts of things and, to quote from our constitution, where students can be encouraged to learn what they wish to learn and also to learn how to learn. I think this is covering the kind of thing you’re talking about.

Caller: It’s all very well to talk about student right, but they forfeit them don’t they?

Richard: What; they forfeit their rights? By exercising them? I would say that if you forfeit rights by exercising them in a reasonable situation then you didn’t have any rights, you see.

Caller: Do you agree that rights are earned and not ….

Richard: No, you see if rights are earned then they aren’t rights are they. If you have to fulfill some condition in order to have a right recognized then it wasn’t a right, it was merely a prize for fulfilling that condition. I mean it’s a basic right of all human beings to be allowed to live, they don’t have to fulfill certain conditions to be allowed to do that you see. And the same applies to any basic right.

Caller: Yeah but what you’re obviously saying is that although you go to school to learn, you’re also there to teach the teacher how to teach.

Richard: You’re also there to contribute to the education process.

Caller: Would you say then that a person at the age of thirteen knows enough to be able to go up to a teacher and tell him that he’s doing his job wrong?

Richard: He knows enough to go up and say what he feels is wrong in the classroom situation because he’s in it, and whether he’s right or wrong is another question, and that will obviously come out in the discussion with the teacher. If the teacher’s ideas are so much more realistic and mature, then obviously the student is not going to get far with his discussion.

Sharon: Whose responsibility is it to teach values? Because values surely must be taught.

Richard: Values, to be real values, can only come from within the person themselves, always, I mean this is basic that you can never force your values on another person except by a highly detailed process of brainwashing.

Sharon: But can’t you save someone from making a mistake they would regret, when you can see ahead and they can’t?

Richard: Oh sure you can try and argue it out with them, but I mean you could go on – if you’re talking about forcing people you could go on doing this right through life, I mean you could have the state system sit down and sort out what jobs everyone is going to take, and say “Look I’m afraid society is going to fall to pieces unless we have 11 more carpenters this year and therefore you 11 boys are going to be carpenters; and this is the best thing – you’ll find its going to be most fulfilling in the long run.”

Sharon: No, but it’s a truth that biologically a child of 13 or 14, or a young person of 14 or 15 is going through a tremendous upheaval, biologically and emotionally, therefore they may want to drop out, to leave, whereas in actual fact they could be so much better if they didn’t, if they could see ahead, and of course they can’t, and therefore is it a sin?

Richard: Oh yes, it quite definitely is. I mean, you say “They can’t see ahead.” But of course from their point of view they can see ahead, and they can see ahead only too well, that they dislike this system and that the longer they stay in it, the worse it’s going to get for them as a person. I think every person should have the right to make up their mind what kind of a life they are going to lead, you know.

Caller: I could talk to you for an hour…

Sharon: Well, we are going to all have to be terribly quick because it’s 19 minutes to 6 already…

Caller: Well, first of all, I’m a product of a very old system of education, and I didn’t grow up to be the kind of person that you are afraid the present system is going to produce. I didn’t grow up frustrated and I didn’t resent the discipline that I got as a boy, and as a matter of fact, after a few years I learned to respect the intention that lay behind a lot of it. What prompted me really to ring in was a program this morning which dealt with the subject on “Town Talk” – the subject of education of citizenship and how to live was brought up, and there was some comparison between the west and the east, on this subject, and whether too much freedom was actually causing our society to collapse morally. Now, what do you think of this Richard?

Richard: Well first if I could just…

Caller: Did you hear the program this morning?
Richard: No, I didn’t I’m afraid. If I could just handle: I think there are basically two points in what you said. Firstly this question of your not resenting the discipline, in fact feeling that indeed it was a good thing: You’re very lucky if you’ve come out of this a well-adjusted person, but I don’t think that because this system produces a few people who are well adjusted, that it should be patted on the back. I think another thing about this is that this kind of argument has been offered about just about every advance that has happened in the history of civilization; for example the freeing of slaves…. Your other point about “Too much freedom is causing a moral collapse in our society” – well, from everything I can see, certainly there’s a great sort of moral dilemma in our society today and its touching every aspect of society, but I don’t think that a moral collapse is underway; I think a moral renaissance is underway. And this is what Rene Mahere, the Secretary General of the United Nations Organization for Children [UNESCO] said about the education system – he said that there is a great educational renaissance happening now, and instead of just ignoring change, and pretending that it’s going to disappear, we should face it firmly and accept this change as heralding this great renaissance that’s bound to come within the next decade.

Caller: Well, perhaps, you may be right in that sense, I mean there was a cultural revolution in China, which has evidently produced some results, but the remarks that were published this morning indicate that unless there is a program of education teaching people how to live, which will run in parallel with this increase in freedom of thought, that we’re heading for disaster, just like other past civilizations have. If you’ve studied your history you’ll know how many civilizations have risen and then fallen, and we’re at the point now where we can do either of those two things. And I’ve got a great deal of faith in you young people, you know.

Sharon: That’s very good and thank you very much for your call. …

Richard: This is one point that has come up time and time again: that the subjects at school try and sidetrack students from realities which they feel are very important in the world around them. The Vietnam War is one glaring example since we have the National Anti-War Mobilization this Friday, and I think Apartheid is another thing which Secondary Students are very concerned about – they show that by coming out on the Apartheid demonstrations and this sort of thing. But there’s no catering for this in the schools: there’s a case we had on our files of a teacher in the North Island who, when he came to school, he told us he was given what was supposedly the general rundown that they give to teachers, and this was that he wasn’t allowed to speak on the Vietnam War, on Apartheid or on the Maori problem, and this was in a school where 30% of the students were Maori. So you know I means this sort of forbidding bringing up the issues that are very real to secondary students is one of the big disasters of our system….

Caller: I was quite happy to respect my parents and my teacher, I knew presumed that they know more than I do: they must know more than we do. Children of today, what are they, 13, 14 or 15: they’ve only had a few years in life but they will not be taught by elders who’ve had their experience. And my daughter, she’s teaching this year and she can see what she’s up against, that they just want pupil power; they’re down with the teachers. Now why are they so rebellious?

Richard: Well I think this sort of “Down with the teachers” idea and you know “Smash the schoolroom”; this is sort of something that the present system is causing. You know, I mean to look through history again, you only have to hunt through the history books a very small way to see that people who are pushed down inside a society which is generally free and democratic naturally rebel in absurd ways.

Caller: I mean I know when I was at school, certainly there were those who rebelled, but we were really prepared to learn from our elders, which is more than can be said of the children today.

Richard: Well, I think you’re making a very broad generalization.

Caller: Oh yes it could be.

Richard: The people in our organization are very sincere in their desire to see education uplifted and not just smashed.

Caller: Yes, yes I agree and I think it does need to be uplifted somewhat too, but I do think that the power that children want is not their right. Well I won’t waste any more of your time because I’m sure there are many others.

Sharon: There are. Thank you, goodbye. Well [to Richard], one question that I’m sure lots of people are asking, and that is what do you want to do when you finish your schooling? “I want to grow up to be a politician”?

Richard: Well, actually, I would like to be a teacher.

Sharon: You would. Well the very best of luck. I’m sure everyone will join in a surprised good wish for that. I want to thank you though, for coming in, and I do hope that perhaps you’ll come back some time soon.

Comment: I uploaded this file for historical interest. It is interesting to compare my views at 16 years old in 1972 with later comments about teaching. As for those who phoned up, Sharon Crosbie reassured me “The people who phone my talkback are like the people who came out to hear Pontius Pilate speak about Jesus in Jerusalem and shouted “Crucify Him” – they are a particular kind of person.”